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IDProjectCategoryView StatusLast Update
0000085MMW v4Properties/Auto-Toolspublic2011-03-20 13:54
Reporterrusty Assigned To 
PriorityhighSeverityminorReproducibilityalways
Status assignedResolutionopen 
Summary0000085: Searching for Tag info doesn't yield expected results
DescriptionSometimes, the user will search for information about an album, but no results are returned, other times, too many are returned. For example:
1) Title: bei mir bist du schon, Artist: benny goodman, Album: Swing Kids --> doesn't return anything
   If I do the same search manually on Freedb.org, the album turns up

2) Title: rock around the clock, Artist: bill haley and the comets, Album: My Shared Folder --> doesn't turn up anything
   If I do the same search manually on Freedb, a number of albums turn up.

Recommendation:
-First issue seems like a bug that should be fixed
-Second issue seems like in the case of multiple fields, if no search results come up, it could be a good idea to search based only on title and artist (and ignore Album).
Additional Information5/27 setting to 'urgent' for discussion.
5/29: triaged to 'high'

Note: #289 is probably a prerequisite to fixing this.

http://www.songs-db.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1855 Discusses an alternate approach of verifying accuracy of Track titles by examining track times.
TagsNo tags attached.
Attached Files
get_track&album_info_proposal_txt.txt (9,737 bytes)   
Improved 'Get Track/Album Information' function
RS
2/13/03

This document summarizes the results of investigation into how competing products help users import metadata into their music collections, and proposes a set of changes that could improve Song-DBs functionality in this area.

Here's a short table that shows some of the strengths and weaknesses of competing products with respect this type of functionality.  The table focuses on the strengths and weaknesses of the tools, rather than the databases upon which they depend.  fyi, though, they each use the following DBs:
-MusicMatch: uses AMG (All Music) on the back end.  AMG is a comprehensive and professionally maintained DB.
-Moodlogic: Uses their own proprietary DB, which is based on comprehensive user questionaires.  The database seems well populated, though I couldn't do a complete test against my music collection.
-Musicbrainz: uses the open musicbrainz db, which is based on user input (content of the db is maturing--currently only ~30% of my music library has been catalogued).

					MusicMatch	Moodlogic	MusicBrainzTagger	Songs DB
-Find CD Album info			3		?		1			3
-Find track title                       2		3		3			1
-Find track artist			2		3		3			1
-Find track's album			3		2		2			1
-Find track year			3		2		2			1	
-Find track album art			3		1		1			1
-Find track genre			1-2		2-3		2			1
-Import subjective classifications	1		2-3		1			1
-Convert found info to tags		3		2		2			1
-Upload tag info to source DB		3		2		2			1
-Use updated metadata for quick mixes	2		3		1			1-2

Details:
Find CD Album Info (example used: The bugcaneers, Dveykus, The Smiths):
-MusicMatch, and songs db correctly identified the CDs and tracks.
-MusicBrainz Tagger couldn't find information about these in its DB.
-Moodlogic didn't seem to support this function?!

Find track title, artist, info (example used: Abba:chiquita):
-Musicmatch used whatever fields were filled in to query the AMG db, however, 
 -Search results were limited to 5 possible Album/Track combinations, limiting the likelihood of a correct hit
  -Searches in which incomplete data was entered (e.g. 'Chi') were useless because of the above limitation
-Moodlogic was a bit better at this, somehow (I'm not sure how??), automatically providing the user with extra metadata about a missing song name and/or release year.
-MusicBrainz is probably the best on this front, as it correctly identified the title/artist without prompting.  The problem, though, is that it's database is not very well populated ;-(
-Songs DB does not provide the user with any help in guessing Artist/Title information

Find track Album, Year, Album art, when Artist/Song are known:
-MusicMatch was excellent for this, since it searched a comprehensive Database, and the user could then select the relevant Album/Year/Album art, although sometimes, the limitation of 5 possible search results was a problem (when a song was on numerous compilation albums).
-Moodlogic: to the extent that I was able to test this without actually paying for the product, Moodlogic accurately guessed year information on several occasions, however, on others it didn't.  I'd need to purchase the full version to get a better idea of this. 
-Musicbrainz was very weak on this front because:
 -Its DB is not well populated, meaning that most searches for Album/Year metadata return data from compilation albums
 -It automatically guesses compilation albums--a pain, since in most cases, users want to know the year a song was originally released, not when 'best of' was
 -No support for album art
-Songs DB was also fairly weak in this respect:
 -Searches for Album/Year information often returned results that didn't even contain the song in question (because the feature is very 'Album centric').  
 -Year information was often incorrect because FreeDB is filled with tons of compilation albums
 -No Album art support

Find Track Genre/subjective classifications
-Musicmatch: is weak here, it only retrieves genres, and these are based on the Album genre (i.e. not track specific)
-Moodlogic: shines!  This is it's strength.  Although its DB may not be fully populated, it stores a wealth of info about songs.  The downside, though, is that the information is stored in the Moodlogic database and cannot be shared with the song tags.  This allows Moodlogic to maintain control over its proprietary DB, but means that users cannot benefit from their work to categorize their collection on other machines.
-MusicBrainz: is also weak in this area.  It doesn't store genres or classifications although this is an area intended for future development.
-Songs-DB: is weak here, as it only retrieves album genre, but it as pointed out earlier, it's difficult to match an album to a song

Convert Found Info into tags:
-Musicmatch: Has a nice UI for migrating any info found directly into song tags
-Moodlogic: Can do this for only some of the information that is found, and doesn't have a great UI for managing this.
-Musicbrainz: Does this nicely, showing the changes between original tags and found metadata.  The main issue is that the quality of the metadata can be problematic, and it doesn't provide good facilities to modify the proposed metadata or only import selected portions of the new metadata--what's usually valuable here is the Name/Artist.
-Songs-DB: doesn't provide the user with any asistance to migrate found data into DB fields

Upload Tag Data into Source DB:
This isn't a critical function, but...
-Musicmatch: haven't tested this
-Moodlogic: Has a _great_ interface for this.  The only downside is that they collect a_lot_ of metadata (in order to facilitate mix creation)
-MusicBrainz: Allows the user to do this, but it has a very slow/confusing/unintegrated www UI to do this.
-Song-db: doesn't have this function at the moment (but no big deal)

Use Updated Metadata for Quick Mixes:
-Musicmatch has an auto-dj function that let's the user quickly use updated tags to create mixes.  The problem is that only the year/genre tags are updated and this metadata is often faulty because year is often based on a compilation album (because of the 5 album search limit).
-Moodlogic: Is awesome for this, although the DB still needs to be more populated
-Musicbrainz: Doesn't offer this functionality, however, if another jukebox program is used after Musicbrainz tagger has updated tags, mixes can be created, however, they will have the same problems as musicmatch created mixes--only worse (because the Musicbrainz db is _filled_ with compilation albums (which means incorrect year metadata) and genres are missing.
-Songs DB: Has functionality to created 'auto playlists' however, the user cannot take advantage of it unless they manually enter all metadata.


Recommendations:
-Create a single 'Get track/album info...' command for getting track info
 -It should be accessible from the main menu, context menu, or properties tab
 -Whether an mp3 or cd track is selected it should pop up a 'Get Info...' dialog (on the assumption that Album information will be loaded into the DB automatically by default)

Get Track/Album Info:
|-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|		    	Artist		Song		Album		Year	Genre		Track	(classification)  				
|Current Information:			Chiquita							    
|<Chiq.ogg>
|-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|Alternate Information:  ABBA		Chiquitita	Voulez Vouz	1979	Rock/Pop	7
|Album cover 		ABBA		Chiquitita	Gold		1983	Rock/Pop	3
|for selected album>	Blahblah	Chiqo and Sam	Kids Stuff	2002	Childrens	3		
|			....
|
|
|
|
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[Accept Selectd Info]  [Cancel]

Note: fields should be editable, in case user wants to make a change before they import the new track info.

Behind the scenes:
 0) If CD, automatically look up via freedb
-Otherwise, look up:
 1) Track information from musicbrainz.  If Artist/Song are found with probabilty > 50% assume that the info is correct.
 2)a) Album/Track/Year/Genre information from Freedb, using the confirmed Artist/Song data from musicbrainz (This is not the preferred solution, since as you pointed out earlier to me, Freedb _cannot_ provide accurate Album information to match Song/Title info (with it's current API)
   b) Album/Track/Year/Genre information from AMG, using the confirmmed Artist/Song data from musicbrainz. (This is the preferred alternative, since it _should_ yield valid information.
 3) Same as 2a),2b) except that even if musicbrainz found info, ignore it and continue with a search (in case musicbrainz was wrong).
 4) List results from steps 1 and 2 in reverse chronological order (since users usually are interested in when a track was first released), and then list any results from 3) that do not match items found in steps 1 and 2, by best match.

This approach takes advantage of the fact that musicbrainz is reasonably good for identifying song/artists, but that alternate data sources have more/more accurate metadata for other fields.

Open Issue: 
-How does the user change metadata for CD based tracks
-It may be necessary to calculate musicbrainz TRM's in the background--otherwise 'Get info' may take too long.
-Submitting data back to Musicbrainz would be nice, but not critical at this stage (I'm not sure how easy it would be, since when doing this with the musicbrainz tagger, the user must first manually build the album, and only
Fixed in build

Relationships

parent of 0002918 closedrusty Automated Album Art lookup when playing/ripping CD 
parent of 0002919 new CD lookup should support Track-level metadata 
parent of 0002920 closedrusty Automated metadata lookup for tracks already in the DB 
related to 0010616 closedLudek Lyrics lookup 
Not all the children of this issue are yet resolved or closed.

Activities

jiri

2003-02-11 09:08

administrator   ~0000125

Actually, this is not a bug, it is how the Freedb search works - the audio CD is taken, information about it is extracted (lengths of all tracks) and freedb is queried for such a disk. It is possible that:
 - either this version of disk does not exist at Freedb at all, but there exists such album with such name there. It is because there exists a number of versions of albums with different track starts and lengths.
 - or there exists a number of matches, user must decide which one is correct. Again, nothing can be done here.

Briefly - although freedb offers web-search based on artist and album name, it is very different from the search made by freedb-aware applications, which do not need to know anything about a CD (just its structure).

It also explains your question, why it isn't possible to query any track - it is possible to query just tracks where information about the physical CD structure is known - either the CD has been inserted at some point or this information is stored within ID3v2 tag (I would like to support it in the future).

If you don't understand my explanation, I think there is some better at www.freedb.org.

rusty

2003-02-11 14:49

administrator   ~0000137

I guess I should rename the bug then to: 'Searching for Tag info doesn't yield expected results'. i.e. the user doesn't get the information that they expect to get.

I'm not sure how MusicMatch does it, but they have a similar feature 'Lookup Tags' that _does_ find the needed information for both of the cases above. Perhaps they're using another DB...

Regardless, we have a deficiency here.

jiri

2003-02-11 15:37

administrator   ~0000143

Last edited: 2003-02-11 15:50

A brief summary of the situation:
 - CDs can be easily recognized.
 - Audio files cannot be easily recognized
  - Usings e.g. artist and album entered by user to find other details (track names) probably isn't interesting
  - There are some services trying to solve this problem by digital audio recognition. I think also CDDB serves something like this, but it is very commercial and expensive (can be consider in later versions).
  - There are also some other services starting, like http://www.musicbrainz.org (I recommend you to study this one carefully). This one particularly seems to have an interesting potential, their usage could be probably for free, later possibly for some money. Eventually they could be even purchased later (my fantasy). You can try to use their solution.

Added: There is a number of other solutions for this or similar topics, recently I found this one: http://agentarts.com
I haven't studied it much, probably only commercial, but could be useful later.

edited on: 02-11 10:50

rusty

2003-02-12 17:15

administrator   ~0000167

>using e.g. artist and album entered by the user to find other details probably isn't interesting

I think that this is very useful functionality. Very often, I have songs for which I have only pieces of information (Artist, Title, or Artist & Title) and from these I try to determine Album/Year information and/or what other songs by this Artist might be interesting to me. e.g. I have a song by the The Byrds called 'So you want to be a rock and roll star' and I want to find out what album it was on and when it was originally released.

jiri

2003-02-12 21:59

administrator   ~0000169

We have to decide what to do here, it can wait until some future version, but sooner is better. Please review MusicBrainz (see above), it would solve the problem and also add much more. Another option is to make our own database based on Freedb, which would be hosted on the webserver and support such queries (e.g. known artist and title).

rusty

2003-02-13 20:36

administrator   ~0000173

OK, I've done a complete review of several of the competing products, and proposed a set of functionality that I think would get us to where we want to be. See attached text file.

jiri

2003-02-16 16:53

administrator   ~0000199

Ok, looks nice. What I now think about this is:
 - AllMusic.com would be nice to use, because it is a professional source of information. It is probably quite expensive, but hopefully we would be able to pay for it after the next release (which will make a lot of money ... :-)
 - There should be something as a complement to a professional, but limited source, and Freedb seems to be the best - not because of its current capabilities, but particularly because of its name and amount of infomation. Currently they support just Artist, album and track names and quite recently added year and genre. I was curious what are the plans for the future and actually it looks like nothing special is planned as it is just a free project and noone has time to expand it now. Quite strange when you consider that a number of commercial projects uses them (e.g. Nero). Go to Freedb forum system, read some of the current topics and you will know what is the current situation. There are two possible steps in further using Freedb:
   - implement something by myself (or some other hired developer) and contribute it to Freedb
   - make some financial contribution to Freedb in order to extend it.
  both seems to be possible, maybe even a mixture of them.

Summary: Both AllMusic and Freedb require some time or money in order to be usable, but are quite promising for the future. I would recommend not to do anything for the next version. This feature is probably useful, but definitely not mandatory and we can live without it. Depending on the future success, I would like to implement both these solutions.

rusty

2003-02-16 20:31

administrator   ~0000202

Last edited: 2003-02-16 20:38

From a customer's point of view, I'd consider this a requirement for a paid version, since MusicMatch, RealJukebox, and Media Jukebox all offer this type of functionality. Maybe we can get by without it in the short term... ;-?

[triagehigher]

edited on: 02-16 15:38

jiri

2003-02-17 08:44

administrator   ~0000214

I think it is a requirement for the long term, but not absolutely necessary in the short term. Actually, I forgot to mention one possible solution:
Amazon allows searches of their catalog that return XML data and can be formated in any way. Even the license seems to allow any "normal" kind of use as long as you put there a link to the Amazon web site with that product you have searched for. The whole process could look like:
 - Search for the artist (it must be correct)
 - Retrieve all albums of this artist
 - Evaluate all tracks with some algorithm to find the best matches and display them.
Actually you can see it partially working in Songs-DB (right click a song and select "Album details"). Currently it only shows a list of albums found, but as you can see, a number of interesting information is accessible and even more can be retrieved (I can supply a full documentation).
Possible problems:
 - they have removed a track list from the query results (major problem, indeed). However, few day ago a message appeared in the discussion forum on Amazon site that the track list is going to return soon.
 - there is a number of information returned, but we will probably miss some others
 - license seems to be ok, but I am not sure

jiri

2003-02-17 10:27

administrator   ~0000215

I have put the Amazon SDK to http://www.songs-db.com/kit.zip

I reviewed the license and this use would probably violate it, but they seem to be open to changing the terms (see the license). E.g. if the URL, where album can be purchased, would be put to the ID3v2 tag (purchase URL or how is it called), I believe they could agree.

rusty

2003-03-12 15:58

administrator   ~0000450

I reviewed the license and depending on how we use the API, I don't believe we need to make any changes to the agreement. Here's my logic:
-The only time that the software _automatically_ saves tag information is when ripping a CD, or inserting a new CD and the info is stored to the DB. For both of those cases, I would suggest that we continue to use FreeDB, since it works well as is.
-Our software also looks up tag information when the user tries to find out more information about a song/album that is already in the database, and in this case, _the user_ must decide to copy the information that is retrieved to the tag (i.e. the app never caches this info). An analogy would be when a user browses an amazon affiliate's site and then saves a web page as a web archive.

jiri

2003-03-13 08:37

administrator   ~0000470

You are right, at least in some sence, but I think it would be good to send them an e-mail in order to let them know about it. They could like the idea or completely forbit it, in which case we would know that it isn't the right way.

BTW, the homepage of the service is http://www.amazon.com/webservices (if you need to review anything there).

rusty

2003-05-05 16:19

administrator   ~0001067

I just tried out a new app called 'The Godfather' that has a nice implementation of a very basic version of the functionality that we're discussing here. Check it out at:
http://users.otenet.gr/~jtcliper/tgf/

What's particularly nice is that the user can retrieve information, and edit their tags based on the retrieved information from a single dialog.

rusty

2003-09-02 17:24

administrator   ~0002239

Per IM discussion: we'll try to:
1) Leverage all music by allowing the user to retrieve information and having the app automatically 'scrape' information and apply it selectively to a track.
2) Possibly leverage amazon in a similar manner but at the same time exposing the ability to purchase music (to be described elsewhere).

Possible implementation for 1)
-the functionality can be accessed via the Search bar (see bug #95) or by right-clicking 'Get Track info' (='Get Track Details' in today's UI), or by clicking a 'Get Track info' button on the track properties page
-After clicking the allmusic button, the results section of the search window opens an embedded browser to allmusic.com
-ideally, known search terms are automatically forwarded to allmusic's site. More likely some manual intervention is required.
-once the user finds the correct album, it is automatically filled into a form in the bottom-right portion of the results portion of the search pane containing (Artist, Album, Year, Genre, Album Graphic + Track Titles, #s, and times).

The only possible downside to this is that it may involve too much manual effort due to the fact that it is not possible to search Allmusic on multiple terms at once (e.g. search for Track=Sunny and Artist=Kinks). If MM can automate this, it would make the process much easier. If not, we may want to consider putting more effort into the Amazon integration.
-user selects the track and clicks 'import'

rusty

2004-05-25 16:42

administrator   ~0004204

There's a neat implementation of something similar to the Album browser at:
http://www.moretunes.net/

It's possible that we could quickly modify the album browser to accomplish something similar, very rapidly (i.e. without adding any musicbrainz or AMG search functionality).

rusty

2004-08-29 13:00

administrator   ~0004485

I've e-mailed a potential implementation that is fairly simple and leverages:
a) MusicBrainz
b) Amazon database
Although in the future it could support other services for either Track Signatures and/or Amazon db lookup.

It supercedes previous descriptions of this functionality.

NOTE: It may be worthwhile to store MusicBrainz signatures (TRM) to the database so that in the future, this information can be used as a means of eliminating duplicate files.

It also 'fits' with the current mode of operation for auto-tag and auto-rename in MediaMonkey. The new functionality should be accessible via:

Main Menu / Context Menu:
-->Auto-Tag
------>From Audio Signature
------>From Filename

Properties Dialog:
-->Lookup Artist and Album details button (Globe): should access this functionality instead of the Album Browser

rusty

2005-05-04 00:46

administrator   ~0005526

Raising to 'immediate' in relation to the AMG Lasso opportunity.

rusty

2005-11-07 17:39

administrator   ~0006197

Pushed to 'high'. Lasso deal hasn't worked out...

rusty

2005-12-18 08:53

administrator   ~0006693

Brief note: search in Google for xxx site:Allmusic.com usually yields excellent results.

We may be able to use this as a means of looking up allmusic (if we can't figure out how to access the db).

rusty

2008-11-19 15:51

administrator   ~0014981

See http://www.dbpoweramp.com/cd-ripper.htm for a neat implementation of metadata lookup using various sources.

rusty

2011-03-20 13:54

administrator   ~0023800

User feedback:
Why I want to replace TuneUp: It's tied into iTunes or WMP forcing me to use one or the other preventing me from using file formats these programs don't support. I have since downloaded the Shark007 codec for Windows 7 64-bit so I can at least overcome that issue. TuneUp also doesn't allow you to have it automatically tag files you add to your library. This would be a nice addition to their program because it saves the tag history allowing you to "Unclean" your files.